Name: Interview of by Steve Chase — Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
Uploaded: 2015-10-19
Duration: 27 min 28 s
Channel: Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
Description: Read the full transcript of “Interview of by Steve Chase”, a lecture by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, with timestamps. Covers: Islam vs Muslims and goal of Tazkiya.

0:09 So it's very moving to be here, um, with you, and I feel that there's—your work, particularly within So it's very moving to be here, um, with you, and I feel that there's—your work, particularly within

0:17 Islam, is very similar to the work that Quakers have historically done within Christianity, in terms of—religion can Islam, is very similar to the work that Quakers have historically done within Christianity, in terms of—religion can

0:25 be both a blessing and it can also be a curse when it turns into fanaticism and disrespect be both a blessing and it can also be a curse when it turns into fanaticism and disrespect

0:32 for other peoples and people who have somewhat different beliefs. for other peoples and people who have somewhat different beliefs.

0:40 So I would—I would love to hear more about how you are holding and presenting Islam in a way that brings out Prophet Muhammad's real commitment to justice and peace and a good society. So I would—I would love to hear more about how you are holding and presenting Islam in a way that brings out Prophet Muhammad's real commitment to justice and peace and a good society.

1:01 I think that the study of religion is not a very easy subject, because there are people confused I think that the study of religion is not a very easy subject, because there are people confused

1:12 between religion and people of religion, between Islam and Muslims. between religion and people of religion, between Islam and Muslims.

1:22 This creates confusion, and it becomes difficult to draw someright conclusion. This creates confusion, and it becomes difficult to draw someright conclusion.

1:33 So my way of thinking is that—I always say that my subject is Islam. So my way of thinking is that—I always say that my subject is Islam.

1:39 Muslim has not been my subject. Muslim has not been my subject.

1:45 So I always study Islam from Islamic texts. So I always study Islam from Islamic texts.

1:51 So I differentiate between Islam and Muslims. So I differentiate between Islam and Muslims.

1:57 So according to my study, the first source of Islam So according to my study, the first source of Islam

2:03 is Quran. is Quran.

2:10 Then Prophet's life, Prophet's saying, Prophet's example. Then Prophet's life, Prophet's saying, Prophet's example.

2:18 These two are basic references of Islam. These two are basic references of Islam.

2:26 So according to my study, people generally refer to some verse So according to my study, people generally refer to some verse

2:33 at the time of Prophet. at the time of Prophet.

2:41 So they—by referring to these verses, they say that Islam is religious verse. So they—by referring to these verses, they say that Islam is religious verse.

2:49 But here also you have to differentiate between basic principles and those things that were due to age factors. But here also you have to differentiate between basic principles and those things that were due to age factors.

2:56 Prophet of Islam started his mission in 7th century AD. Prophet of Islam started his mission in 7th century AD.

3:04 At that time there was tribal culture. At that time there was tribal culture.

3:14 Tribal culture means culture of conflict, culture of war, because tribes—tribes don't do anything except violence. Tribal culture means culture of conflict, culture of war, because tribes—tribes don't do anything except violence.

3:24 So to this age factor, sometimes Prophet was engaged in So to this age factor, sometimes Prophet was engaged in

3:34 war. war.

3:39 But war is not Islamic teaching. But war is not Islamic teaching.

3:44 It was due to age factor. It was due to age factor.

3:49 And also Prophet always managed those wars. And also Prophet always managed those wars.

3:54 So in Islamic study, in—in the Prophet's life, there is no full-fledged war, only some skirmishes, because Prophet So in Islamic study, in—in the Prophet's life, there is no full-fledged war, only some skirmishes, because Prophet

3:59 always tried to minimize always tried to minimize

4:05 the tension. the tension.

4:12 And due to this strategy, there was no full-fledged war. And due to this strategy, there was no full-fledged war.

4:20 So this is my—my study. So this is my—my study.

4:27 Then another point is that I always try to know what was the real goal of Islam Then another point is that I always try to know what was the real goal of Islam

4:35 . Real goal. . Real goal.

4:41 So according to my study, goal was not to establish government. So according to my study, goal was not to establish government.

4:47 It was not true goal. It was not true goal.

4:54 Islamic goal was to prepare individuals that is called Tazkiya. Islamic goal was to prepare individuals that is called Tazkiya.

5:00 In—if you adopt the term In—if you adopt the term

5:06 used by—by the Quran, then it is Tazkiya. used by—by the Quran, then it is Tazkiya.

5:14 Tazkiya means purification. Tazkiya means purification.

5:21 So according to my study, the only goal of Islam was to—to purify people. So according to my study, the only goal of Islam was to—to purify people.

5:29 By purification, I mean basically to—to prepare them, th By purification, I mean basically to—to prepare them, th

5:37 em, to live as a positive personality, avoid negative thinking. This is the basic, basic issue. So this is my study. em, to live as a positive personality, avoid negative thinking. This is the basic, basic issue. So this is my study.

5:51 I think so. I think so.

5:59 And I—I very much like the distinction between, you know, a religious truth and tradition and then the individuals. And I—I very much like the distinction between, you know, a religious truth and tradition and then the individuals.

6:06 In the—the scriptures about Jesus, the Gospels about Jesus, he's quoted as saying, "Many people say, 'Lord, Lord, In the—the scriptures about Jesus, the Gospels about Jesus, he's quoted as saying, "Many people say, 'Lord, Lord,

6:14 Lord,' but they will not be saved, the people who treat the least of thieves Lord,' but they will not be saved, the people who treat the least of thieves

6:21 well and who take care of the orphan and the widow and—and are peacemakers." That that's what he well and who take care of the orphan and the widow and—and are peacemakers." That that's what he

6:29 felt was more fundamental than just sort of adoring or having a certain almost idolatry around people. felt was more fundamental than just sort of adoring or having a certain almost idolatry around people.

6:37 And so that distinction, I think, is an important one. And so that distinction, I think, is an important one.

6:45 In your work with the Center for Peace and Spirituality, In your work with the Center for Peace and Spirituality,

6:53 how—what is you—what is your method of helping people come to a deep realization that peace is what—what faithfulness is to God, and then start enacting that in their lives? how—what is you—what is your method of helping people come to a deep realization that peace is what—what faithfulness is to God, and then start enacting that in their lives?

7:14 Our method is basically individual, not manual. Our method is basically individual, not manual.

7:22 I believe that—that mind is the center of all kinds of activities. I believe that—that mind is the center of all kinds of activities.

7:31 If you want to bring about change in human personality, you have to change the mind. If you want to bring about change in human personality, you have to change the mind.

7:39 So we always focus on So we always focus on

7:47 —on one's—on way of thinking. —on one's—on way of thinking.

7:52 And we are trying to bring about change in—in way of thinking. And we are trying to bring about change in—in way of thinking.

7:57 For example, our world is a world of differences. For example, our world is a world of differences.

8:02 Everywhere there are differences, religious, social, both. Everywhere there are differences, religious, social, both.

8:07 So this difference always makes people negative. So this difference always makes people negative.

8:12 And first com And first com

8:17 es negativity, then comes extremism, then violence, then war, and lastly suicide bombing. es negativity, then comes extremism, then violence, then war, and lastly suicide bombing.

8:24 So the root cause is way of thinking. So the root cause is way of thinking.

8:32 So we try to re-engineer their mind. So we try to re-engineer their mind.

8:39 By re-engineering of mind, I—I mean that By re-engineering of mind, I—I mean that

8:47 we try to make them believe that difference is part of nature. we try to make them believe that difference is part of nature.

8:51 You cannot eliminate the differences. You cannot eliminate the differences.

8:56 People generally tend to eliminate the differences. People generally tend to eliminate the differences.

9:00 That is impossible. That is impossible.

9:04 So in Quran, there is a—there is a teaching that is called Sabr. So in Quran, there is a—there is a teaching that is called Sabr.

9:08 Sabr means patience. Sabr means patience.

9:13 Sabr is one of the great teachings of Sabr is one of the great teachings of

9:17 Islam. Islam.

9:27 So Sabr means patience. So Sabr means patience.

9:37 Patience means don't try to eliminate those differences, but avoid it and keep patience. Why? Because Patience means don't try to eliminate those differences, but avoid it and keep patience. Why? Because

9:48 God Almighty has created us with great potentials. God Almighty has created us with great potentials.

9:56 These potentials are in a dominant position. These potentials are in a dominant position.

10:03 So it needs to turn these potentials into actual. So it needs to turn these potentials into actual.

10:11 And the only way of turning potential into actual is—is—is patience, dialogue, And the only way of turning potential into actual is—is—is patience, dialogue,

10:19 intellectual exchange, and trying to live with positive—positivity even in negative situations. intellectual exchange, and trying to live with positive—positivity even in negative situations.

10:29 So it is this process that leads to Tazkiya, that is—that is to prepare one's personality. So it is this process that leads to Tazkiya, that is—that is to prepare one's personality.

10:39 So this is, in short, our way to re-engineer the people's mind and So this is, in short, our way to re-engineer the people's mind and

10:49 to make them to live with differences with a positive mind. to make them to live with differences with a positive mind.

11:03 Excellent. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you.

11:09 I noticed on the CPS International website, you talked about how that you feel very close affinity with I noticed on the CPS International website, you talked about how that you feel very close affinity with

11:15 Gandhianism and Gandhian nonviolence. Gandhianism and Gandhian nonviolence.

11:21 And I'd be very interested to hear what are the elements of Gandhi's philosophy and action methodology that And I'd be very interested to hear what are the elements of Gandhi's philosophy and action methodology that

11:27 you find really helpful, and are there any element you find really helpful, and are there any element

11:33 s that you find less helpful than others? s that you find less helpful than others?

11:37 Gandhi adopted nonviolence, but according to my knowledge, his nonviolence was political nonviolence. Gandhi adopted nonviolence, but according to my knowledge, his nonviolence was political nonviolence.

11:47 And he tried to oust British from India by the way of nonviolence, while the other leaders, like, were extremists. And he tried to oust British from India by the way of nonviolence, while the other leaders, like, were extremists.

11:58 They said that, "Give us blood They said that, "Give us blood

12:08 and we will give you freedom." But—but Gandhi said that, "No, we will achieve our goal through nonviolent and we will give you freedom." But—but Gandhi said that, "No, we will achieve our goal through nonviolent

12:15 method." So his was—his—his nonviolence was a political strategy. method." So his was—his—his nonviolence was a political strategy.

12:23 So I agree with Gandhi, but my nonviolence is broader than Gandhi's. So I agree with Gandhi, but my nonviolence is broader than Gandhi's.

12:30 My nonviolence is My nonviolence is

12:38 based on Hadith. Prophet of Islam has said, "Innallaha yauti' al-riq mala yauti' al-zul." It means that God grants to peace what He does not grant to violence. So this is a—this is a—this is not a political strategy. It is for whole life, for family life, for personal life, for based on Hadith. Prophet of Islam has said, "Innallaha yauti' al-riq mala yauti' al-zul." It means that God grants to peace what He does not grant to violence. So this is a—this is a—this is not a political strategy. It is for whole life, for family life, for personal life, for

13:08 social life. Everywhere you have to adopt nonviolence. That is peace, not only in political fields. So I'm great—I'm—I admire Mahatma Gandhi, but not in political sense, but in general sense. My nonviolence is based on Prophet's saying, Prophet's teaching, social life. Everywhere you have to adopt nonviolence. That is peace, not only in political fields. So I'm great—I'm—I admire Mahatma Gandhi, but not in political sense, but in general sense. My nonviolence is based on Prophet's saying, Prophet's teaching,

13:38 basically. Is it clear? basically. Is it clear?

13:42 Yes. Yes.

13:47 That's—that's really interesting. That's—that's really interesting.

13:52 And Gandhi made a distinction between nonviolence of the weak and nonviolence of the strong. And Gandhi made a distinction between nonviolence of the weak and nonviolence of the strong.

13:57 And the nonviolence of the strong was where people were seeing it as a whole life, not just And the nonviolence of the strong was where people were seeing it as a whole life, not just

14:02 a political strategy or a tactic, but growing out of deep faithfulness and—and changed hearts and minds. a political strategy or a tactic, but growing out of deep faithfulness and—and changed hearts and minds.

14:07 And it seems like that aspect is And it seems like that aspect is

14:12 —is—is the part of Gandhian nonviolence that you've drawn and built on the most. Is that a correct assumption? —is—is the part of Gandhian nonviolence that you've drawn and built on the most. Is that a correct assumption?

14:23 I—I would say that basically for Gandhi, nonviolence was political strategy. Political strategy. I—I would say that basically for Gandhi, nonviolence was political strategy. Political strategy.

14:33 His—but he said that nonviolence is not—not—not for any weak people. His—but he said that nonviolence is not—not—not for any weak people.

14:43 It is also for strong people. It is also for strong people.

14:53 He said that we are using nonviolence not because we are—we are—we are weak, but our nonviolence is—is our strength. We are—we can fight against Britishers, but—but in—but I never used—but I've decided that we will not use arms against Britishers. He said that we are using nonviolence not because we are—we are—we are weak, but our nonviolence is—is our strength. We are—we can fight against Britishers, but—but in—but I never used—but I've decided that we will not use arms against Britishers.

15:23 But we will—we will—we will use the non—nonviolent strategy. But we will—we will—we will use the non—nonviolent strategy.

15:30 So this differentiation was in—in a—in a limited sense. So this differentiation was in—in a—in a limited sense.

15:38 According to my study, his nonviolence was political strategy. According to my study, his nonviolence was political strategy.

15:45 He said that our nonviolence is not because of our we He said that our nonviolence is not because of our we

15:53 akness, but we are strong enough to fight Britishers, but we—we have decided not to use arms. akness, but we are strong enough to fight Britishers, but we—we have decided not to use arms.

16:03 So basically his nonviolence was political strategy. So basically his nonviolence was political strategy.

16:14 He only justified his violence—justified his—his nonviolence by saying that we are not weak, we are strong. So He only justified his violence—justified his—his nonviolence by saying that we are not weak, we are strong. So

16:25 in—he said it in a—in a limited sense. Is it clear? in—he said it in a—in a limited sense. Is it clear?

16:32 Yeah. One of the things I'd be interested in is, as people that you work with are changing hearts and minds and—and changing the individual, how does that show up as changed behavior in—in their communities and families and social life? Yeah. One of the things I'd be interested in is, as people that you work with are changing hearts and minds and—and changing the individual, how does that show up as changed behavior in—in their communities and families and social life?

16:56 We believe in two states. We believe in two states.

17:06 In—in as a first—as a first instance, we try to bring about change in individ—individuals. In—in as a first—as a first instance, we try to bring about change in individ—individuals.

17:16 Then when there are—when—when a substantial amount, substantial number of individuals are changed, then it is bound to perpetuate Then when there are—when—when a substantial amount, substantial number of individuals are changed, then it is bound to perpetuate

17:27 in society. in society.

17:29 So he works, you know, on—he's saying there are two classifications, you know. So he works, you know, on—he's saying there are two classifications, you know.

17:33 There's a vertical way of working and then there is a horizontal way of working. There's a vertical way of working and then there is a horizontal way of working.

17:36 You can't straight away go onto the vertical way of working. You can't straight away go onto the vertical way of working.

17:40 You have to work on an horizontal level. You have to work on an horizontal level.

17:44 Eventually, over a period of time, then it moves up to the top, you know, to the leaders and all. Eventually, over a period of time, then it moves up to the top, you know, to the leaders and all.

17:48 So one example is the Kashmir example that, you know, he's been working on. So one example is the Kashmir example that, you know, he's been working on.

17:51 So he's been working on the horizontal level. So he's been working on the horizontal level.

17:55 Now gradually it's moved up to, you know, some local leaders who have been, you know, giving fiery Now gradually it's moved up to, you know, some local leaders who have been, you know, giving fiery

17:59 speeches. speeches.

17:59 We—we never—we never used the state activism in—in Kashmir. Never, never. We always tried to address individuals' minds. So after some time, when the number of individuals increased, then there was a popular movement. We—we never—we never used the state activism in—in Kashmir. Never, never. We always tried to address individuals' minds. So after some time, when the number of individuals increased, then there was a popular movement.

18:23 So, you know, working on the individuals, then it became, you know, a popular movement. So, you know, working on the individuals, then it became, you know, a popular movement.

18:29 So that's how, you know, the lives of the people got transformed and they changed. Right. So that's how, you know, the lives of the people got transformed and they changed. Right.

18:35 He's saying that we didn't do street activism because Gandhian—one aspect of Gandhian system is civil disobedience, which He's saying that we didn't do street activism because Gandhian—one aspect of Gandhian system is civil disobedience, which

18:42 is part of—which part of it is street activism, that you go out, marches, and this. is part of—which part of it is street activism, that you go out, marches, and this.

18:48 So he says that we So he says that we

18:54 didn't do street activism. We just re-engineered individual minds. So our nonviolence is of nonviolent working, telling people to change nonviolently. didn't do street activism. We just re-engineered individual minds. So our nonviolence is of nonviolent working, telling people to change nonviolently.

19:05 Through literature. Through literature.

19:06 Through literature, but not street activism. You know, so he says that he admires Gandhi a lot. And the only difference is that Gandhi took, you know, to the mass level. And, you know, his methodology was, you know, street activism. So he says that his approach is not the mass level or the street activism. His approach or his methodology is more. Through literature, but not street activism. You know, so he says that he admires Gandhi a lot. And the only difference is that Gandhi took, you know, to the mass level. And, you know, his methodology was, you know, street activism. So he says that his approach is not the mass level or the street activism. His approach or his methodology is more.

19:30 It was the outset he adopted street activism. It was the outset he adopted street activism.

19:35 Yeah. Yeah.

19:39 So, you know, it wasright at the outset. So, you know, it wasright at the outset.

19:43 It was, you know, mass level, street activism, going to the masses. It was, you know, mass level, street activism, going to the masses.

19:47 But his approach is more individual-based approach because he feels that, you know, when individuals are re-engineered, their But his approach is more individual-based approach because he feels that, you know, when individuals are re-engineered, their

19:51 minds are re-engineered, then, you know, collectively, at a collective level, these individuals make up, you know, a minds are re-engineered, then, you know, collectively, at a collective level, these individuals make up, you know, a

19:54 society, and a society makes up a nation. society, and a society makes up a nation.

19:58 So, you know, it percolates, you know, to the vertical level also, to the leaders. So, you know, it percolates, you know, to the vertical level also, to the leaders.

20:02 So his approach in that sense is very different So his approach in that sense is very different

20:06 from the Gandhian approach, although he admires him, he loves him, you know, for his nonviolence principle. from the Gandhian approach, although he admires him, he loves him, you know, for his nonviolence principle.

20:11 But the methodology, its center for peace and spirituality that he's adopted is more individual-based rather than street-based But the methodology, its center for peace and spirituality that he's adopted is more individual-based rather than street-based

20:16 or protest-based or, you know. or protest-based or, you know.

20:21 That's very clear. That's very clear.

20:26 I know it's getting late and we've talked a long time, but there's another question that I think I know it's getting late and we've talked a long time, but there's another question that I think

20:31 would be of interest to a lot of people in the United States because I think there's huge unmet would be of interest to a lot of people in the United States because I think there's huge misunderstand

20:36 ing about the word jihad. And I noticed in one of your essays that I was reading today, you were talking about jihad in a way that I've understand it as sort of the internal struggle for spiritual wisdom and compassion and faithfulness rather than an external violent instru. But I would—I would love to hear more about how you view jihad and—and how—how it might have been very misused by ext ing about the word jihad. And I noticed in one of your essays that I was reading today, you were talking about jihad in a way that I've understand it as sort of the internal struggle for spiritual wisdom and compassion and faithfulness rather than an external violent instru. But I would—I would love to hear more about how you view jihad and—and how—how it might have been very misused by ext

21:06 remist elements with—with, you know, who are claiming to be Islamic. But I think for U.S. people, there's so much confusion about what that term means. And so I think it'd be great to—to hear your view of what—what jihad really means. remist elements with—with, you know, who are claiming to be Islamic. But I think for U.S. people, there's so much confusion about what that term means. And so I think it'd be great to—to hear your view of what—what jihad really means.

21:26 The word jihad is an Arabic word. The word jihad is an Arabic word.

21:33 And literally it means to strike, to struggle. And literally it means to strike, to struggle.

21:40 Jihad has nothing to do with—with—with war and violence. Jihad has nothing to do with—with—with war and violence.

21:47 Not at all. Not at all.

21:55 If you want to see reference, I would refer one verse of the Quran. Do If you want to see reference, I would refer one verse of the Quran. Do

22:02 jihad with the help of the Quran. jihad with the help of the Quran.

22:10 So, you know, Quran is not an arm, Quran is not a gun. So, you know, Quran is not an arm, Quran is not a gun.

22:17 So how one can do jihad in violent sense with the help of the Quran? So how one can do jihad in violent sense with the help of the Quran?

22:25 So it's very clear that here this Quranic verse refers to ideological jihad, So it's very clear that here this Quranic verse refers to ideological jihad,

22:33 peaceful ideological jihad. peaceful ideological jihad.

22:39 So peaceful jihad, this is the jihad that is mentioned in the Quran. The. So peaceful jihad, this is the jihad that is mentioned in the Quran. The.

22:45 In our present time, Muslims are—some Muslims, some group of Muslims are engaged in violence, in war. In our present time, Muslims are—some Muslims, some group of Muslims are engaged in violence, in war.

22:52 They refer—they claim that this is jihad. They refer—they claim that this is jihad.

22:58 It is misuse of word jihad. It is misuse of word jihad.

23:04 What Muslims saying that misuse of word jihad. What Muslims saying that misuse of word jihad.

23:12 And—and it is—mind is free. And—and it is—mind is free.

23:19 So everyone can misuse word, misuse a term. So everyone can misuse word, misuse a term.

23:27 So I'm very clear that jihad in Quran is peaceful—peaceful activism. And those So I'm very clear that jihad in Quran is peaceful—peaceful activism. And those

23:34 who are engaged in violence, they mis—misuse the word jihad. I have established this in my books, for example, for example, True Jihad and Islam and—and World Peace. There are several books in which I have established this concept that jihad is peaceful ideological activism who are engaged in violence, they mis—misuse the word jihad. I have established this in my books, for example, for example, True Jihad and Islam and—and World Peace. There are several books in which I have established this concept that jihad is peaceful ideological activism

24:04 . It is not war and violence. . It is not war and violence.

24:11 One of the main books is The Prophet of Peace, which has been given to you today. Yes, I was looking at that today. Thank you. One of the main books is The Prophet of Peace, which has been given to you today. Yes, I was looking at that today. Thank you.

24:17 There are two different words in the Quran, jihad and qital. There are two different words in the Quran, jihad and qatar.

24:25 So jihad means peaceful struggle, while qital means war. So jihad means peaceful struggle, while qatar means war.

24:32 So there are some verses in the Quran that refers qital, that is war. So there are some verses in the Quran that refers qatar, that is war.

24:40 But these verses were revealed in Medina when Prophet was—when there—when there was But these verses were revealed in Medina when Prophet was—when there—when there was

24:48 any tribe of war, tribal leaders attacked Medina. And due to their attack, there was a war. So at that time, Quran revealed some of qatar, but that was temporary. When there is attack, then there is qatar. Otherwise, no qat any tribe of war, tribal leaders attacked Medina. And due to their attack, there was a war. So at that time, Quran revealed some of qatar, but that was temporary. When there is attack, then there is qatar. Otherwise, no qat

25:18 ar. So in Islam, peace is the rule and qatar is an exception. ar. So in Islam, peace is the rule and qatar is an exception.

25:27 Is there time for one more question? Is there time for one more question?

25:29 Yeah. Yeah.

25:29 I would love to hear about the role of interfaith dialogue in the work of the Center for Peace and Spirituality. I would love to hear about the role of interfaith dialogue in the work of the Center for Peace and Spirituality.

25:41 We are very proud to participate in the—in these dialogues and seminars. We are very proud to participate in the—in these dialogues and seminars.

25:48 And we always say that dialogue is not debate. And we always say that dialogue is not debate.

25:56 Dialogue is not debate. Dialogue is not debate.

26:03 Don't try to—don't try to debate with others and try to establish your Don't try to—don't try to debate with others and try to establish your

26:11 path. path.

26:17 Dialogue is for intersection and mutual learning. Dialogue is for intersection and mutual learning.

26:23 According to us, dialogue is for mutual learning. According to us, dialogue is for mutual learning.

26:29 And we always insist—insist that the—the difference cannot be eliminated, neither—neither through dialogue nor—nor through war. And we always insist—insist that the—the difference cannot be eliminated, neither—neither through dialogue nor—nor through war.

26:35 Difference always will Difference always will

26:41 remain. So don't try to eliminate the differences, but avail it as a mutual learning. This is our—our—our stand in this regard. remain. So don't try to eliminate the differences, but avail it as a mutual learning. This is our—our—our stand in this regard.

26:58 Thank you. This has been really helpful and I—I appreciate everyone here. And we loved getting the—the books that you gave us about the work you were doing. And we just wanted to give this group—this is a pamphlet, The Pendle Hill, from a series The Pendle Hill Publishers. And then there's also a book which is an introduction to the Quaker Way that. Thank you. This has been really helpful and I—I appreciate everyone here. And we loved getting the—the books that you gave us about the work you were doing. And we just wanted to give this group—this is a pamphlet, The Pendle Hill, from a series The Pendle Hill Publishers. And then there's also a book which is an introduction to the Quaker Way that.

27:27 Thank you. Thank you.

Interview of Maulana Wahiduddin Khan by Steve Chase