Name: IN CONVERSATION — Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
Duration: 28 min 13 s
Channel: Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
Description: Read the full transcript of “IN CONVERSATION”, a lecture by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, with timestamps. Covers: Islam is a religion of peace.

0:13 Hello and welcome to my series of conversations with men and women whose ideas, vision, and philosophy define our contemporary world. My guest today is an eminent Islamic scholar, philosopher, teacher who embodies the highest aspirations of his faith. Hello and welcome to my series of conversations with men and women whose ideas, vision, and philosophy define our contemporary world. My guest today is an eminent Islamic scholar, philosopher, teacher who embodies the highest aspirations of his faith.

0:30 He has worked hard to reinterpret, interpret, redefine, and articulate an Islam that is relevant to contemporary times. His writings and teachings have been translated and used at universities across the world, in Arabia, in the West, in India. He has been the apostle for a dialogue between religions and cultivating the middle ground that might yield peace. He has worked hard to reinterpret, interpret, redefine, and articulate an Islam that is relevant to contemporary times. His writings and teachings have been translated and used at universities across the world, in Arabia, in the West, in India. He has been the apostle for a dialogue between religions and cultivating the middle ground that might yield peace.

0:58 I'm delighted to welcome Maulana Wahiduddin Khanzab. Thank you, thank you. Aatne, you have written so extensively on Islam. You have done a definitive translation of the Quran. There is so much violence that is perceived in the name of Islam, of defending Islam. I'm delighted to welcome Maulana Wahiduddin Khanzab. Thank you, thank you. Aatne, you have written so extensively on Islam. You have done a definitive translation of the Quran. There is so much violence that is perceived in the name of Islam, of defending Islam.

1:25 . What does, for you, the Quran say on the issue of the use of violence? . What does, for you, the Quran say on the issue of the use of violence?

1:33 Historically, when we look at the Historically, when we look at the

1:36 life of the Prophet, life of the Prophet,

1:39 at that time too, that, you know, the Prophet, in order to establish Islam, led and participated in at that time too, that, you know, the Prophet, in order to establish Islam, led and participated in

1:45 many violent crusades. many violent crusades.

1:50 To what degree, and what is the basis of Islam's position on the use of violence To what degree, and what is the basis of Islam's position on the use of violence

1:57 It's a very good question, very relevant. According to my study, you know I'm an Islamic scholar. So according to my study and my experience, Islam is a religion of peace in the complete sense of the word. It's a very good question, very relevant. According to my study, you know I'm an Islamic scholar. So according to my study and my experience, Islam is a religion of peace in the complete sense of the word.

2:23 But there are two different, But there are two different,

2:27 you can, version of Islam. you can, version of Islam.

2:29 One is the scriptural version, doosra what is practiced by Muslims. One is the scriptural version, دوسرا what is practiced by Muslims.

2:35 So people generally refer to Muslim practices. So people generally refer to Muslim practices.

2:40 But being an Islamic scholar, I always see the scriptures. But being an Islamic scholar, I always see the scriptures.

2:47 You know, society is not, You know, society is not,

2:50 no society can be a perfect society. no society can be a perfect society.

2:53 It is impossible. It is impossible.

2:55 So in every society, there are some bad things, some deviations from the ideology. So if you want to know what is Islam, then you have to see the scripture that is Quran and Hadith. So in every society, there are some bad things, some deviations from the ideology. So if you want to know what is Islam, then you have to see the scripture that is Quran and Hadith.

3:18 And if you want to see how are Muslims, then you have to see the Muslim society. So as far as the Islamic teachings concern, it is very clear in Islam that Islam is a religion of peace. For example, there is a very important and very relevant verse in the Quran, As-Sulhu Khayr. It is a general teaching of Islam. And if you want to see how are Muslims, then you have to see the Muslim society. So as far as the Islamic teachings concern, it is very clear in Islam that Islam is a religion of peace. For example, there is a very important and very relevant verse in the Quran, As-Sulhu Khayr. It is a general teaching of Islam.

3:46 as sulhu khayr means reconciliation is the best. it means that if you are facing some differences, so you have to take the you have to adopt the conciliatory course of action rather than confrontational course of action. As-Sulhu Khayr means reconciliation is the best. It means that if you are facing some differences, so you have to take the you have to adopt the conciliatory course of action rather than confrontational course of action.

4:13 but isn't it also true, maulana sahib, that one is able to use any scripture to interpret it, to justify all kinds of actions? and the sort of the islamic extremists, and i entirely agree with you that any community and any faith will have its extremists, its fundamentalist people who will choose to interpret it in a manner that suits perhaps their political agendas or economic disparities. But isn't it also true, Maulana Sahib, that one is able to use any scripture to interpret it, to justify all kinds of actions? And the sort of the Islamic extremists, and I entirely agree with you that any community and any faith will have its extremists, its fundamentalist people who will choose to interpret it in a manner that suits perhaps their political agendas or economic disparities.

4:42 But there are many elements that come in the expressions of violence. So assuming that this is the teaching of Islam, of peace and reconciliation, what do you feel are the roots of the current churning in Islam that is yielding so much violence? But there are many elements that come in the expressions of violence. So assuming that this is the teaching of Islam, of peace and reconciliation, what do you feel are the roots of the current churning in Islam that is yielding so much violence?

5:05 Is it sort of the history of the Middle East, their historical imperatives that have bred resentment that now find expression in violence and seek justification in the Quran? Is it sort of the history of the Middle East, their historical imperatives that have bred resentment that now find expression in violence and seek justification in the Quran?

5:19 Fine. It is also فائن۔ It is also

5:25 imperative that there may be some different interpretations. imperative that there may be some different interpretations.

5:31 And these interpretations are outcome of their own perception, their own conditioning, their own circumstances. And these interpretations are outcome of their own perception, their own conditioning, their own circumstances.

5:41 So it is, every time it is possible to find some, find different interpretations. So it is, every time it is possible to find some, find different interpretations.

5:48 I agree. But because when comes different interpretation, there is, there is difference I agree. But because when comes different interpretation, there is, there is difference

5:57 But if one is sincere to understand the Quranic teachings, sincerity is the must. And he is able to decondition his mind. But if one is sincere to understand the Quranic teachings, sincerity is the must. And he is able to decondition his mind.

6:10 . He is able to . He is able to

6:12 go through Quran objectively. go through Quran objectively.

6:15 Then there is, I don't think that there is, it is, it is, no doubt you can reach Then there is, I don't think that there is, it is, it is, no doubt you can reach

6:24 theright message of the Islam. theright message of the Islam.

6:27 Right message. Because people generally obsess, some obsessions, Right message. Because people generally obsess, some obsessions,

6:33 some, some malices, some some, some malices, some

6:38 bias. So due to these conditionings, bias. So due to these conditionings,

6:43 they adopt some other kind of interpretation other than true interpretation. they adopt some other kind of interpretation other than true interpretation.

6:49 As far as myself concerned, As far as myself concerned,

6:51 I am completely an objective person. I am completely an objective person.

6:55 I don't live in hate, for example. There are news in Muslim media. Every day there are news of some atrocities, some conspiracies. But I don't agree with these kinds of news. I don't live in hate, for example. There are news in Muslim media. Every day there are news of some atrocities, some conspiracies. But I don't agree with these kinds of news.

7:13 But tell us, what do you think are the roots of the current churning, the current violence that is being attributed to Islamic militant groups in many parts of the world? Yes. Yesterday I met an Egyptian scholar. He was Dr. Salahuddin as-Sultan. He advocated those jihadi groups. He was a youth person. But tell us, what do you think are the roots of the current churning, the current violence that is being attributed to Islamic militant groups in many parts of the world? Yes. Yesterday I met an Egyptian scholar. He was Dr. Salahuddin as-Sultan. He advocated those jihadi groups. He was a youth person.

7:43 He was Egyptian. So I said that you have to see the result. If you find some difficulties, some problems, and you want to go to jihad, so why are you not seeing the result? You are doing jihad perhaps since 100 years, but no result. He was Egyptian. So I said that you have to see the result. If you find some difficulties, some problems, and you want to go to jihad, so why are you not seeing the result? You are doing jihad perhaps since 100 years, but no result.

8:07 So is jihad an action, seeking some positive result, or is it some negative activities? So is jihad an action, seeking some positive result, or is it some negative activities?

8:23 ? So he was, any, he agreed that ? So he was, any, he agreed that

8:28 result is, that is important. result is, that is important.

8:31 So I referred some verses from the Quran. So I referred some verses from the Quran.

8:36 And I said that also you are abusing the word Jihad. And I said that also you are abusing the word Jihad.

8:42 Because according to the Jihad, Because according to the Jihad,

8:44 according to the Quran, Jihad is a defensive according to the Quran, Jihad is a defensive

8:50 action, not offensive action. action, not offensive action.

8:57 It means that if there is attack, then you are allowed to go to war. It means that if there is attack, then you are allowed to go to war.

9:03 Otherwise, not. And the second condition is that jihad is prerogative of an established state. No agencies other than the state are allowed to go to war. Otherwise, not. And the second condition is that jihad is prerogative of an established state. No agencies other than the state are allowed to go to war.

9:22 So if you see these verses of the Quran, you will admit that there is no that all those wars like guerrilla wars, proxy wars, and undeclared wars, secret wars, all those wars are not allowed in Islam. So if you see these verses of the Quran, you will admit that there is no that all those wars like guerrilla wars, proxy wars, and undeclared wars, secret wars, all those wars are not allowed in Islam.

9:48 And all these jihads are not I said that these jihads are not fought by any state. Only some private organizations are doing these jihads. So it is haram. It is unlawful. And all these jihads are not I said that these jihads are not fought by any state. Only some private organizations are doing these jihads. So it is haram. It is unlawful.

10:04 You have been a great proponent and have entered into so many processes and dialogue with people who Islam might, or at least sort of the extreme wing of Islam might, describe as kafirs. So what is your understanding of this notion of kafir, and what forms the basis of the Islamic dialogue with other faiths? You have been a great proponent and have entered into so many processes and dialogue with people who Islam might, or at least sort of the extreme wing of Islam might, describe as kafirs. So what is your understanding of this notion of kafir, and what forms the basis of the Islamic dialogue with other faiths?

10:30 Very good question. There is a great misunderstanding about the word kafir. Literally, kafir means one who refuses, one who refuses, inkaar karne wala. But generally, people take it as equivalent to non-Muslim. Very good question. There is a great misunderstanding about the word kafir. Literally, kafir means one who refuses, one who refuses, inकार करने वाला. But generally, people take it as equivalent to non-Muslim.

10:58 It is incorrect. People generally think that who is not Muslim is a kafir. No. It is wrong. It is incorrect. People generally think that who is not Muslim is a kafir. No. It is wrong.

11:08 According to Islam, everyone is simply insan. Ya ayyuhal nas, ayyuhal insan. Hundreds and hundreds of times the Quran addresses people with this word, insan, an-nas. So everyone is basically insan. That's all. According to Islam, everyone is simply insan. Ya ayyuhal nas, ayyuhal insan. Hundreds and hundreds of times the Quran addresses people with this word, insan, an-nas. So everyone is basically insan. That's all.

11:33 And if you, And if you,

11:35 if you convey some message if you convey some message

11:39 and he refuse to, to accept you, and after and he refuse to, to accept you, and after

11:47 a long time, maybe 25 years, a long time, maybe 25 years,

11:53 because Prophet, Prophet tried to convey his message up to 23 years. because Prophet, Prophet tried to convey his message up to 23 years.

12:01 So if after, after the stretch of 23 years one refuses, then you can say he is a So if after, after the stretch of 23 years one refuses, then you can say he is a

12:07 Kafir. Kafir means he has refused my message. Kafir. Kafir means he has refused my message.

12:11 Otherwise he is insan. Otherwise he is انسان.

12:13 So what is the relationship of a believer with a person who is just insan, in a sense, a disbeliever? So is there a sort of an obligation to persuade him to become a believer, to interact with him, engage with him in ways different to what you would with other believers? What is the relationship? So what is the relationship of a believer with a person who is just insan, in a sense, a disbeliever? So is there a sort of an obligation to persuade him to become a believer, to interact with him, engage with him in ways different to what you would with other believers? What is the relationship?

12:39 I will give a very relevant example from the life of the Prophet of Islam. You know, the Prophet of Islam was born in Makkah. Then he migrated to Madinah. So at that time, there were some Jewish tribes in Madinah. So what happened? I will give a very relevant example from the life of the Prophet of Islam. You know, the Prophet of Islam was born in Makkah. Then he migrated to Madinah. So at that time, there were some Jewish tribes in Madinah. So what happened?

13:04 One day, the Prophet saw a funeral procession passing through a street in Madinah. So tradition says that the Prophet was seated at that time. Upon seeing the funeral, he stood up in respect, in respect. So one of his companions said, "O Prophet, he was Jew, not a Muslim. One day, the Prophet saw a funeral procession passing through a street in Madinah. So tradition says that the Prophet was seated at that time. Upon seeing the funeral, he stood up in respect, in respect. So one of his companions said, "O Prophet, he was Jew, not a Muslim.

13:34 He was a non-Muslim, not a Muslim." So the Prophet replied, "Alayshat nafsan, was he not a human being? " It means that the Prophet was able to discover commonality between himself and that non-Muslim. So this is the true spirit of Islam. He was a non-Muslim, not a Muslim." So the Prophet replied, "Alayshat nafsan, was he not a human being? " It means that the Prophet was able to discover commonality between himself and that non-Muslim. So this is the true spirit of Islam.

14:02 You have often in your writings and teachings You have often in your writings and teachings

14:06 called for a more contemporary interpretation or a contemporary understanding, an application of Islam and, and the teachings called for a more contemporary interpretation or a contemporary understanding, an application of Islam and, and the teachings

14:15 of the Quran. of the Quran.

14:17 Doesn't that implicitly suggest that Doesn't that implicitly suggest that

14:21 the, you know, the Quran is to be the, you know, the Quran is to be

14:25 interpreted and, and, and understood interpreted and, and, and understood

14:28 in, in, in a social context that is valid and relevant today in, in, in a social context that is valid and relevant today

14:33 ? And in many senses, many religions have their origins in particular social environments and social contexts to ? And in many senses, many religions have their origins in particular social environments and social contexts to

14:41 meet social needs. meet social needs.

14:43 So perhaps, you know, the Prophet said you can have, you know, more than one wife because there So perhaps, you know, the Prophet said you can have, you know, more than one wife because there

14:48 was a social need for the protection of women. was a social need for the protection of women.

14:51 Or the Prophet said you should not eat pork because there was a social need. Or the Prophet said you should not eat pork because there was a social need.

14:56 Those times and those circumstances change. Those times and those circumstances change.

15:00 So to what degree is the word of the Prophet final, sacrosanct, and locked in So to what degree is the word of the Prophet final, sacrosanct, and locked in

15:09 ? Or can it be interpreted to current social needs? ? Or can it be interpreted to current social needs?

15:13 According to my study, According to my study,

15:17 Quran gives only some basic teachings. Quran gives only some basic teachings.

15:24 You know, Quran is a, You know, Quran is a,

15:27 relatively is a small book. relatively is a small book.

15:30 So only few things are declared as unlawful, like pork and wine So only few things are declared as unlawful, like pork and wine

15:39 and adultery. So there is a very important principle in Islam, and adultery. So there is a very important principle in Islam,

15:47 Al-Asr al-Ibaha. It means that Al-Asr al-Ibaha. It means that

15:54 anything, anything which is not declared as unlawful is lawful. anything, anything which is not declared as unlawful is lawful.

16:02 So when in the Quran, only a few things are declared unlawful, so all other things are lawful. It is a very important teaching of the Quran. Then you know. So when in the Quran, only a few things are declared unlawful, so all other things are lawful. It is a very important teaching of the Quran. Then you know.

16:21 Any interpretation, that is ijtihad. In Arabic, it is ijtihad. In English, we say it is interpretation. So interpretation is very open in the Quran and Hadith. Any interpretation, that is ijtihad. In Arabic, it is ijtihad. In English, we say it is interpretation. So interpretation is very open in the Quran and Hadith.

16:38 You can go to any extent. So I think that this principle of Islam gives us freedom to interpret Islam according to our needs, according to our circumstances, according to the requirement of age. You can go to any extent. So I think that this principle of Islam gives us freedom to interpret Islam according to our needs, according to our circumstances, according to the requirement of age.

17:03 e. Recently a popular, you know, news magazine has done a cover story on Fatwas e. Recently a popular, you know, news magazine has done a cover story on Fatwas

17:09 and how there is a collection of Fatwas that are issued that comment on, on all kinds of and how there is a collection of Fatwas that are issued that comment on, on all kinds of

17:16 things, you know, from, you know, the use of lipsticks to the, you know, to the length of, things, you know, from, you know, the use of lipsticks to the, you know, to the length of,

17:24 you know, Sania Mirza's, you know, shorts, the whole range of issues. you know, Sania Mirza's, you know, shorts, the whole range of issues.

17:30 How do you, as, as, as, as, as a modern Islamic scholar, look at this whole issue of How do you, as, as, as, as, as a modern Islamic scholar, look at this whole issue of

17:38 F F

17:39 And we're not getting into the more complicated ones on Salman Rushdie and what have you, but just in everyday life and living. According to my knowledge, all these fatwas are absurd. Nothing to do with Islam. And we're not getting into the more complicated ones on Salman Rushdie and what have you, but just in everyday life and living. According to my knowledge, all these fatwas are absurd. Nothing to do with Islam.

17:55 . I think implicit in the issue of Fatwa and, and many of the pronouncements of the Muslim . I think implicit in the issue of Fatwa and, and many of the pronouncements of the Muslim

18:01 Law Board and, and looking at, at, at a whole range of issues. Law Board and, and looking at, at, at a whole range of issues.

18:04 And I, I will not burden you with, with, with details there. And I, I will not burden you with, with, with details there.

18:08 But as a, a, a practicing Muslim yourself who represents, you know, the highest aspirations of the faith, But as a, a, a practicing Muslim yourself who represents, you know, the highest aspirations of the faith,

18:18 you're a Maulana, you're a Maulana,

18:21 what changes would you like to see in the way that, you know, the Muslim community has organized what changes would you like to see in the way that, you know, the Muslim community has organized

18:27 itself, you know, engages in the processes of politics and, and in, in pursues its self-interest? itself, you know, engages in the processes of politics and, and in, in pursues its self-interest?

18:37 What would you like to see changed? What would you like to see changed?

18:40 There are so many things which need change. There are so many things which need change.

18:43 But before change, we have to educate Muslims. But before change, we have to educate Muslims.

18:48 We cannot begin from changes. We cannot begin from changes.

18:51 You have to begin from educating Muslims. You have to begin from educating Muslims.

18:54 Because, you know, Muslims are Because, you know, Muslims are

18:59 backward in education everywhere, even in Muslim countries. backward in education everywhere, even in Muslim countries.

19:03 So first of all, we have to begin from education. So first of all, we have to begin from education.

19:07 First of all, we have to educate Muslims. First of all, we have to educate Muslims.

19:09 Otherwise, no change Otherwise, no change

19:11 But how do you educate them? You know, in India, we have struggled with this notion of education, whether it's been the right-wing Hindutva movement, and then somebody else comes in and says, "Well, we don't agree with this. This is what we should have," a centrist position. Then you have the left position. And then you have in the madrasas, you have another position. So who decides, and how do you decide what is a good education? But how do you educate them? You know, in India, we have struggled with this notion of education, whether it's been the right-wing Hindutva movement, and then somebody else comes in and says, "Well, we don't agree with this. This is what we should have," a centrist position. Then you have the left position. And then you have in the madrasas, you have another position. So who decides, and how do you decide what is a good education?

19:37 And how would you define a good education for the Muslim community, in a sense? And would it need to be different to the education that the larger community gets and non-Muslims receive? By education, I simply mean to modernize the madrasas, to make people know what is that world in which we are living at present. And how would you define a good education for the Muslim community, in a sense? And would it need to be different to the education that the larger community gets and non-Muslims receive? By education, I simply mean to modernize the madrasas, to make people know what is that world in which we are living at present.

20:01 Because madrasa people don't know anything outside the madrasa. So I think that it is a very good beginning to modernize the madrasas. Why not just have secular education for everybody and let the process of religion be something that happens in the home? Yes. I do agree. It's a very good point. Because madrasa people don't know anything outside the madrasa. So I think that it is a very good beginning to modernize the madrasas. Why not just have secular education for everybody and let the process of religion be something that happens in the home? Yes. I do agree. It's a very good point.

20:25 He always said that He always said that

20:28 send, you have to send your, your children in, in secular institutions. send, you have to send your, your children in, in secular institutions.

20:34 And if you want to educate, if you want religious education, then at your home. And if you want to educate, if you want religious education, then at your home.

20:41 It is good to educate your children at home, in, in, in, in, in term of religion. It is good to educate your children at home, in, in, in, in, in term of religion.

20:49 So your home is best religious school. So your home is best religious school.

20:59 But you send your boy to secular education, secular institutions. And I hasten to add, girl. Even girl. Even girl. Because it is not good to leave girls uneducated. It is not good. But you send your boy to secular education, secular institutions. And I hasten to add, girl. Even girl. Even girl. Because it is not good to leave girls uneducated. It is not good.

21:18 What do you think is the basis for interfaith dialogue, interfaith conciliation, the celebration of diversity, or the What do you think is the basis for interfaith dialogue, interfaith conciliation, the celebration of diversity, or the

21:29 cultivation of unity and diversity? cultivation of unity and diversity?

21:31 Do we just celebrate the fact that Islam is different to Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism, or what Do we just celebrate the fact that Islam is different to Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism, or what

21:38 have you? Or do we look for these common strands and say, "No, that, you know, somewhere ultimately have you? Or do we look for these common strands and say, "No, that, you know, somewhere ultimately

21:45 all these religions are teaching the same thing"? all these religions are teaching the same thing"?

21:49 I believe that I believe in dialogue. Dialogue is a very important process. And I believe in useful dialogue. And how to make dialogue useful? I believe that I believe in dialogue. Dialogue is a very important process. And I believe in useful dialogue. And how to make dialogue useful?

22:08 I think it requires a true spirit of understanding and acceptance of what is rationally good and right. So a true spirit of understanding is required. I think it requires a true spirit of understanding and acceptance of what is rationally good and right. So a true spirit of understanding is required.

22:25 Then if you find that there are some differences, Then if you find that there are some differences,

22:30 because, you know, difference is part of nature. because, you know, difference is part of nature.

22:34 So it is but natural to find some differences among different traditions. So it is but natural to find some differences among different traditions.

22:39 So the best way is, So the best way is,

22:44 best way is what is mentioned in the Quran, best way is what is mentioned in the Quran,

22:49 "For me, your religion, for you, for you, your religion, for me, mine." "For me, your religion, for you, for you, your religion, for me, mine."

22:54 It means that follow one and respect all It means that follow one and respect all

23:00 So first of all, you have to discover similarities and understanding. But if you find that there are some differences, then you have to follow this formula, follow one and respect all. In India, we have celebrated secularism. So first of all, you have to discover similarities and understanding. But if you find that there are some differences, then you have to follow this formula, follow one and respect all. In India, we have celebrated secularism.

23:18 ism. We have interpreted secularism perhaps differently to what many other liberal democracies, particularly in the West, have ism. We have interpreted secularism perhaps differently to what many other liberal democracies, particularly in the West, have

23:28 interpreted. And that has usually meant sort of either a hands-off approach of, of the state to religion. interpreted. And that has usually meant sort of either a hands-off approach of, of the state to religion.

23:38 In India, that, you know, the state, you know, manages several religious trusts of the Hindus. In India, that, you know, the state, you know, manages several religious trusts of the Hindus.

23:43 It sort of has a stake in, in, in supporting, you know, many, you know, Muslim institutions It sort of has a stake in, in, in supporting, you know, many, you know, Muslim institutions

23:51 and, and, and, and other minority groups. and, and, and, and other minority groups.

23:55 What do you see as, as an ideal structure What do you see as, as an ideal structure

24:00 for the relationship between the religion and the state for the relationship between the religion and the state

24:04 Do you see a proactive role where the state supports all religions, and then the state says, no, this is a personal private business, and you do what you need to do? What is your vote for? I think that the secular formula is best. But there are two different versions of secularism. An extremist version is not very good. Do you see a proactive role where the state supports all religions, and then the state says, no, this is a personal private business, and you do what you need to do? What is your vote for? I think that the secular formula is best. But there are two different versions of secularism. An extremist version is not very good.

24:30 I don't believe in the extremist version of secularism. But the liberal version of secularism, that is very good. According to the liberal version, secularism means simply a policy of non-interference. A policy of non-interference. It is secularism. I don't believe in the extremist version of secularism. But the liberal version of secularism, that is very good. According to the liberal version, secularism means simply a policy of non-interference. A policy of non-interference. It is secularism.

24:54 So I think that in a multi-religious society, it is very good to adopt a secular system. A secular system means giving freedom to every traditional group, every religion. And the state must follow the policy of good for all. What is good for all? That is the state policy. Manasab, you're a practicing Muslim. So I think that in a multi-religious society, it is very good to adopt a secular system. A secular system means giving freedom to every traditional group, every religion. And the state must follow the policy of good for all. What is good for all? That is the state policy. Manasab, you're a practicing Muslim.

25:20 You are a great scholar, and so you're called a Maulana. What is the personal aspiration that someone at your age feels for yourself? You are a great scholar, and so you're called a Maulana. What is the personal aspiration that someone at your age feels for yourself?

25:32 You have devoted so much of your life to the social dimension of interpreting Islam for other people, making it contemporary, trying to reduce conflict between faiths, trying to make Islam a more dynamic religion. Is there a personal aspiration that coexists? That I want to go to Allah, I want to sort of go to paradise, or I want to go to heaven. What is your own aspiration? You have devoted so much of your life to the social dimension of interpreting Islam for other people, making it contemporary, trying to reduce conflict between faiths, trying to make Islam a more dynamic religion. Is there a personal aspiration that coexists? That I want to go to Allah, I want to sort of go to paradise, or I want to go to heaven. What is your own aspiration?

26:01 In my early life, I was disturbed with differences. Because everywhere there are differences. So I was disturbed with these differences. But now, after reading the book "History of History," compiled by. Arnold Tanby. In my early life, I was disturbed with differences. Because everywhere there are differences. So I was disturbed with these differences. But now, after reading the book "History of History," compiled by. Arnold Tanby.

26:23 Arnold Tanby. Now I am very much satisfied that difference is not only part of nature, but difference is a way of development. Because difference breeds challenges. And through challenge, we progress. Without challenge, there is no progress. Arnold Tanby. Now I am very much satisfied that difference is not only part of nature, but difference is a way of development. Because difference breeds challenges. And through challenge, we progress. Without challenge, there is no progress.

26:51 So now I'm satisfied, and I'm not disturbed with these differences. This is my finding. But isn't it, Koi, your own wish for yourself, that I want to gain so much more insight, understanding? What do you seek? My target is truth. So now I'm satisfied, and I'm not disturbed with these differences. This is my finding. But isn't it, Koi, your own wish for yourself, that I want to gain so much more insight, understanding? What do you seek? My target is truth.

27:19 I want to, I'm a seeker. Even today, I'm a seeker. So I want to reach that decision and experience that truth with a capital T. What is the truth? I want to, I'm a seeker. Even today, I'm a seeker. So I want to reach that decision and experience that truth with a capital T. What is the truth?

27:45 So I want to embrace that truth and. And do you feel close to it? Yes. About to reach the truth? Yes, yes. I feel myself close to it. Yes. And what might happen when you discover the truth? Do you become enlightened in the sense that we, in many of the sort of South Asian Hindu Indic traditions, believe? What happens when you discover the truth? So I want to embrace that truth and. And do you feel close to it? Yes. About to reach the truth? Yes, yes. I feel myself close to it. Yes. And what might happen when you discover the truth? Do you become enlightened in the sense that we, in many of the sort of South Asian Hindu Indic traditions, believe? What happens when you discover the truth?

28:13 Yes. Enlightenment is the result of discovery, of realization. When you realize the truth, you become an enlightened person. This is by experience. Manaji, thank you very much. This has been a great honor and a great blessing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Enlightenment is the result of discovery, of realization. When you realize the truth, you become an enlightened person. This is by experience. Manaji, thank you very much. This has been a great honor and a great blessing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

IN CONVERSATION MAULANA WAHIDUDDIN KHAN